Extracts from CATHOLIC ANSWERS forums on:
Maria Valtorta's Poem of the Man-God
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=6533 Post #3
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#3
 July 7, 2004, 06:34 AM
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 Re: Poem of the
Man-god by Maria Valtorta - What do you think? Oh, here we are. I found the link to the article:
http://www.envoymagazine.com/backissues/4.4/question.htm |
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=10845 Post #2
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#2
August 11, 2004, 06:05 AM
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Re: Is the 'Joshua'
series Catholic? While Church authorities, either on a national (U.S.) or universal
(Vatican) level will sometimes caution the faithful about a particular
book, especially if that book is doctrinally problematic (e.g., Catholicism by Fr. Richard McBrien; U.S.
bishops) or is popularly considered to "complete" the Gospels (e.g., Poem of the Man-God by Maria Valtorta; Holy See), the Church usually
leaves book reviews to the popular press and trusts the discernment of
individual Catholics. In the case of Joshua by Fr. Joseph F.
Girzone, I am unaware of any "official" cautions against the series. For a
review by Fr. Brian Wilson, L.C., click here (scroll to third question).
__________________
"The devil fears hearts on fire with love of God." --St. Catherine of Siena http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=24515 Post #2 Go directly to the post by clicking on the number highlighted on the R.H.Side next to the red triangle:
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http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=24515 Post #6
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#6
December 7, 2004, 05:07 PM
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Re: The Poem of the
Man-God One priest's opinion: "Maria Valtorta -
e non importa !"
Maria Valtorta's "Poem of the Man-God" and Medjugorje |
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=85449&page=1 Post #19
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#19
November 21, 2005, 12:26 AM
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Re: I Need Help
with Poem of the Man-God dcdural wrote:
Quote:
e.g. Sadie Jaramillo see http://www.sign.org/index.phtml?p=news&story=1046 Julia Kim/Naju see http://www.ourlady.ca/events/ete3flyer.htm Garabandal see http://www.ourlady.ca/about/bishopletr2.htm where, despite the affirmation of eight (8) local Ordinaries that there is nothing supernatural about Garabandal - and the declatation by the present Bishop of Santander (in which is located Garabandal) that the matter is "terminado" = FINISHED/ TERMINATED! - this Bishop Danylak, who has NO authority to made authorative statements in any bishop's diocese - interferes, AND pretends to give Imprimaturs which have no worth whatsoever - for only the local bishop possesses the "charism of discernment" over any alleged mystical phenomena in his diocese! As for "Poem of the man-God" see http://www.mary-modelofchurch.net/Fidelity.htm on the matter of "Catholic Insight" See also Rick Salbato's article on "Priests That Follow Apparitions" at http://www.unitypublishing.com/NewReligiousMovements/AreTheyPriests.html |
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=85449&page=1 Post #59
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#59
November 26, 2005, 08:15 AM
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Re: I Need Help
with Poem of the Man-God I won't use the silly, childish oversized text to
try to shout back a response and making the thread into an electronic
billboard. I think normal size and using bold and color to emphasize key
points is adequate without insulting anyone's intelligence (or harm their
eyes). Forgive me for saying so, but such large text is the equivalent of
an e-tantrum.
Here is the original letter sent from Cardinal Ratzinger back in the 80s. With the wording that Cardinal Ratzinger, now Pope Benedict XVI used below, I think it would be foolish for any Catholic to take this thing [Poem of the Man-God] and read it. Unlike many in the long list of supporters for this work, the CDF does have authority and jurisdiction. SACRED CONGREGATION FOR THE DOCTRINE OF THE FAITH Prot. N. 144/85 Roma, 31 January 1985 Most Reverend Eminence, With a letter of 18 May [1984], Father [...] asked of this Sacred Congregation a clarification about the writings of Maria Valtorta, collected under the title of "The Poem of the Man-God", and if there exists any evaluation of the Church's Magisterium on the publication in question with the corresponding bibliographical reference. On this subject I have the honor of expressing to Your Eminence -- you will judge the opportuneness of informing the Father [...] -- that in fact the Work in question was placed on the Index on 16 December 1959 and defined by "L'Osservatore Romano" of 6 January 1960, as "A Badly Novelized Life of Jesus." The provisions of the Decree were re-published with an explicit note again in L'Ossservatore Romano of 1 December 1961, as can be reviewed in the documentation herewith enclosed. Since some have subsequently held that after the abrogation of the Index, the printing and diffusion of the Work in question is licit, L'Osservatore Romano (15 June 1966) had presented what was published in A.A.S. (1966) [Acta Apostolicae Sedis]: that, although abolished, the "Index" retained "all its moral value," for which [reason] the diffusion and recommendation of a Work is not held to be opportune when its condemnation was not taken superficially, but after weighing its purposes, to the end of neutralizing the damages which such a publication could bring to the more unprepared faithful. With gratitude for your every kind arrangement, I profit by this occasion to confirm my sense of profound esteem For Your Most Reverend Eminence, Most Devotedly, (signed) Joseph Card. Ratzinger (with enclosure) |
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=85449&page=1 Post #69
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#69
November 26, 2005, 10:53 AM
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Re: I Need Help
with Poem of the Man-God Quote:
My uncle is a priest, he used to live at the Vatican, and he was good friends with a lot of the cardinals. His bishop, Bishop Hnilica, was friends with Pope John Paul the Great, and that is how my uncle found this out. So, I suppose you could say it is purely anecdotal, and I don't expect opponents of the book to believe me, but I know that it is true. Anyway, yes, it does not surprise me one bit that they would be devoted to these books. First of all, this is pure hear-say. Once again, should we all discount the Holy See in favor of this? Secondly, is this the same Bishop Hnilica? D. Under the influence of Bishop Hnilica, who has been involved with the propagation of a number of non-recognised and even condemned "alleged apparitions," i.e., Teresa Lopez, of Denver, also Vassula Ryden, and Medjugorje) and Rev. Father P. Klos (now suspended by Cardinal Simonis and revoked by his s.s.s. order), the public devotion to Mary under the title "Lady of all Nations" was authorised by Bishop Bomers and assistant Bishop Punt on 31.05.1996. At this time a distinction was expressly made between the title and the "apparitions' and "messages". No judgment was passed about the supernatural character of the "apparitions" and the contents of "the messages". And, other interesting reads about Bishop Hnilica, http://www.unitypublishing.com/Apparitions/TheresaLopez.html And, of course the "God's Banker" scandal....(scroll all the way down to the bottom to the heading: "The Vatican Bank Scandal" There was a curious footnote to the IOR scandal. In 1993, an Italian court convicted Slovak-born Bishop Pavel Hnilica of losing $2.8 million of Church funds by trying to buy a suitcase supposedly containing documents that would absolve the Vatican of blame. The seller who decamped with the cash was one of the men now charged with Calvi’s murder. |
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=85449&page=1 Post #86
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#86
November 26, 2005, 05:21 PM
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Re: I Need Help
with Poem of the Man-God It cracks me up that Bishop Williamson of the SSPX is also a fan and
promoter of Poem of the Man-God. It would seem that those that have a
problem with who is the arbiter of what seem to love this series. I think
they should all read Pastor Aeternus:
http://www.ewtn.com/faith/teachings/papae1.htm Quote:
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http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=85449&page=1 Post #88
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#88
November 26, 2005, 08:30 PM
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Re: I Need Help
with Poem of the Man-God Approved Apparations >http://www.catholicdoors.com/isit/approved.htm
Private Revelations > http://www.catholicdoors.com/isit/isitchur.htm |
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=85449&page=1 Post #128
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#128
November 29, 2005, 09:18 PM
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Re: I Need Help
with Poem of the Man-God Quote:
I'm going to try one last time to draw everyone's attention to key points from Bishop Boland's letter to Tony Colafrancesco of Caritas, and from the letter to Bishop Boland from Cardinal Ratzinger instructing him to explain the Church's position. Anyone obstinate enough to claim this is not the Church speaking leaves me to fully believe they are far from "prepared" to read the novel. This is how the Church typically speaks on such matters. By all means, for those who feel it is not the Church talking here, please enlighten the rest of us as to how it would be handed down. The following excerpts were taken from full length letters by Cardinal Ratzinger and Bishop Raymond J. Boland shown in their entirety in posts #58 & #59. (1) His Eminence, Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, in a letter which I received from the Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith this week, has asked me to inform you about the position of the Church regarding the writings of Maria Valtorta called The Poem of the Man-God. (2) "that the 'visions' and 'dictations' referred to in it are simply the literary forms used by the author to narrate in her own way the life of Jesus. They cannot be considered supernatural in origin." (3) those who use, publish or sell the writings in question should know and clearly express the judgment of the Holy See as indcated in the underlined section of my previous paragraph. (4) The Cardinal wants you to know that the Congregation in the past has issued certain "Notes" on this subject for the guidance of the faithful and these were published in L'Osservatore Romano. (5) Hoping that this letter will serve as an authoritative response to the question which you addressed to His Eminence Cardinal Ratzinger in your letter of July 21, 1992, I am, Sincerly in Christ, (Signed) Most Rev. Raymond J. Boland, D.D. Bishop of Birmingham in Alabama In this last statement, when Bishop Boland uses the word "hoping" at the beginning, it does not mean he is unsure of himself. Rather, he is communicating the hope that the recipient will humbly accept the judgment of the Holy See. Extracting key points from Cardinal Ratzinger's letter to Bishop Boland: (A) On this subject I have the honor of expressing to Your Eminence -- you will judge the opportuneness of informing the Father [...] -- that in fact the Work in question was placed on the Index on 16 December 1959 and defined by "L'Osservatore Romano" of 6 January 1960, as "A Badly Novelized Life of Jesus." (B) that, although abolished, the "Index" retained "all its moral value," for which [reason] the diffusion and recommendation of a Work is not held to be opportune when its condemnation was not taken superficially, but after weighing its purposes, to the end of neutralizing the damages which such a publication could bring to the more unprepared faithful. |
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=85449&page=1 Post #129
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#129
November 29, 2005, 09:40 PM
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Re: I Need Help
with Poem of the Man-God I am going to focus in more closely on one statement in
particular:
those who use, publish or sell the writings in question should know and clearly express the judgment of the Holy See as indcated in the underlined section of my previous paragraph. Why would the Church go so far as to inform those who publish or sell the writings to notify people of the judgment of the Holy See by labeling the book as stated above if it were not the judgement of the Holy See? Bishops cannot simply make this kind of statement to suit their personal opinion. "They cannot be considered supernatural in origin." Any Catholic publishing or selling this book, who refuses to do this, is being disobedient. It gets real scary when individuals place their own opinions above that of Holy Mother Church. I really question, if Mother Teresa had read the book in any serious manner, which still remains merely hearsay, was she fully aware of the Church's position, which was clarified in 1993? Or, did this person see the book being carried around sometime earlier in the century. Either way, it has no relevance because in 1993, the Church spoke very clearly. |
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=85449&page=1 Post #151
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#151
December 1, 2005, 11:03 PM
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Re: I Need Help
with Poem of the Man-God Quote:
I would like to remind all who would respond to these kinds of posts to keep in mind that catechesis has been horrible, not to mention RCIA. There are many well-intended people, who have not been given the faith in its fulless, and in its accuracy. That having been said, lets tackle the reason why "The Fall" could not have been sexual in nature. Prior to "the fall", Adam and Even had what is called sanctifying grace. This meant that, unlike us today, they were not prone to bad passions, such as anger and lust until they lost sanctifying grace through disobedience to God. Sanctifying grace protected them from lust. Furthermore, to suggest that sex was a sin for Adam and Eve means that they would have no way to procreate, which they did do. There was no one before them to marry them, so they were joined by God to each other, and they did procreate. However, before "the fall" they did not experience pain, death, and the like. To suggest that the fall consisted of something sexual is to infer that Adam and Eve had no permission to engage in sex, which is required for procreation. How could God make only two people, only to "expect" them to live in chastity? Was God suppose to create a third person who would have the right to join them in marriage before they could do so? Chew on that for a while. I do not have 3 hours to sit here and address all that you have pasted in, much of which has already been addressed in the short time I have now. And, just to be clear, at no time did I ever suggest or infer sola scriptura was the rule of the day. Rather, it is Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Those things belong to the deposit of faith, not the Poem of the Man-God. I cannot paste the whole section as I wanted, without going over the limit. If the first sin involved sex, the CCC would have said so, but it is not logical in light of the status of Sanctifying Grace before and after the fall. Full text is in the web link: From the CCC: Man's first sin 397 Man, tempted by the devil, let his trust in his Creator die in his heart and, abusing his freedom, disobeyed God's command. This is what man's first sin consisted of.278 All subsequent sin would be disobedience toward God and lack of trust in his goodness. 398 In that sin man preferred himself to God and by that very act scorned him. He chose himself over and against God, against the requirements of his creaturely status and therefore against his own good. Constituted in a state of holiness, man was destined to be fully "divinized" by God in glory. Seduced by the devil, he wanted to "be like God", but "without God, before God, and not in accordance with God".279 If the Poem led you to believe sex was involved, it proves the point that it can lead unprepared people astray. |
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=85449&page=1 Post #152
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#152
December 1, 2005, 11:14 PM
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Re: I Need Help
with Poem of the Man-God Here is an excerpt from that link I provided on Sanctifying Grace
above. Fr. John A. Hardon writes (with references):
Dogmatic Value It is defined doctrine, at least implicitly in Trent, that Adam possessed sanctifying grace before the fall. Regarding Adam's integrity, theologians distinguish between immunity from carnal and spiritual concupiscence. They say it is implicitly defined in Trent (DB 792) that Adam was free from sense concupiscence; or according to others it is proxima fidei. Immunity from spiritual concupiscence is said to be at least theologically certain; or the composite of integrity as such may be called proxima fidei. Adam's immortality of body has been defined by the Church, and is found in a series of documents: DB 101, 174, 788. The possession of infused knowledge is held to be common and certain doctrine, though some assign a higher dogmatic note. |
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=85449&page=1 Post #203
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#203
December 2, 2005, 09:20 AM
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Re: I Need Help
with Poem of the Man-God And, straight from http://www.bardstown.com/~brchrys/Imprmatur.htmBishop
Danylaks website:
Cardinal Ratzinger in private letters has acknowledged that this work is free from errors in doctrine or morals. The Conference of Italian Bishops has acknowledged the same in its correspondence with the current editor, Dr. Emilio Pisani. Private letters????????????? So, this is how the Church hands down decisions of this kind - through private correspondence? God help us  |
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=85449&page=1 Post #205
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#205
December 2, 2005, 09:47 AM
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Re: I Need Help
with Poem of the Man-God Quote:
Private chit-chats should be completely disregarded as hear-say. There is no proof that Cardinal Ratzinger ever told anyone anything in private about this that did not match his earlier public statement. Attributing such commentary to him is a very bad thing to do. Folks of Medjugorje tried that one and he (Ratzinger) came back with a letter that is now public (not a private chit-chat), as follows (from the Michael Davies book on Medjugorje: Medjugorje - Twenty One Years Later (sixth edition which is online in its entirety and endorsed by the man with jurisdiction - Bishop Ratzko Peric of the Mostar-Duvno Diocese). On 28 July 1998 Cardinal Ratzinger wrote to a correspondent confirming that statements attributed to the Pope and to him in favour of Medjugorje had been “freely invented”. I possess a photocopy of this letter. Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger I-00120 CITTA DEL Vaticano 22 Juli 1998 Herrn ............ 00069 Trevignano Romano (RM) Dear Mr. ... First of all, I have to apologize for answering your kind letter from 27th May only today. The burden (i.e. work load) of the last few weeks has been so heavy that I had to postpone my private correspondence again and again so that only now, as my vacation is about to begin, I can at last try to answer the more important letters. I thank you very much for sending me the memorandum by Claus Peter Clausen, whom in fact I know as the author of the Schwarze Briefe (Black Letters). I can only say that the statements attributed to the Holy Father and me are freely invented. With my best wishes for your manifold activities. Josef Ratzinger It is more than probable that the Holy Father was referring to Medjugorje in a speech reported in the 18 September 1996 edition of L'Osservatore Romano when he stated: Some members of the People of God are not rooted firmly enough in the faith so that the sects, with their deceptive proselytism, mislead them to separate themselves from true communion in Christ. Within the Church community, the multiplication of supposed "apparitions" or "visions" is sowing confusion and reveals a certain lack of a solid basis to the faith and Christian life among her members. |
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=85449&page=1 Post #215 & #216
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#215
December 3, 2005, 01:47 PM
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Re: I Need Help
with Poem of the Man-God Thanks for posting that. It was an interesting read. I like how the
author gets into the discernment process, which is what I've been trying
to explain for three pages now (from the link in the above post). Number 3
is definitely rampant with regards to Medjugorje.
The whole private revelation scene can be a veritable zoo. Obviously, not every claim to divine inspiration is de facto authored by God. Simple criteria can be applied by anyone to any purported revelation. Some of these are straightforward: alignment with the gospel and Church teaching, the lifestyle and integrity of the seer or locutionist, submission to ecclesial authorities, proclaiming Christ's Lordship, and depicting a God who loves the world. I find people continually tripping up for want of other essential though less obvious criteria. I'll list a few of these: 1. Syncretism. Some sources are a hybrid of pagan, secular, and Christian ideas. The other day I picked up a booklet entitled something like Mary Speaks to the World and containing the following "quotation" from Mary: "I want to encourage you to continue to place your trust in God, whomever you conceive him to be." Such a statement can't be reconciled with Christian teaching. God is God, and "whomever I conceive him to be" must be conformed to the truth of his being, not to my preferences. Here we see a pagan idea wedded to a Christian figure. 2. Hidden agenda. Other messages are strongly ideological, promoting an agenda that reflects the anger and dissatisfaction of certain interest groups in today's Church, such as "messages" in which Mary demands exterior formalism and reduces every problem in the Church to the absence of Communion on the tongue, women wearing veils in church, and the Latin Mass. What is most disturbing is the claim that the Blessed Mother is lambasting the Church's change in discipline. 3. Anti-hierarchy. Other messages are not only critical of the Church hierarchy-and I'm not elevating the hierarchy above critique-but actually deny Church authorities their delegated responsibility of shepherding God's people. When this succeeds in turning people away from the guidance of pope, bishops, priests, and spiritual directors, there's no longer any objective means of safeguarding the Christian life. That's dangerous. Religious experience without theological objectivity is an accident waiting to happen. 4. Common sense. Some purported private revelations just seem to be ridiculous, plain and simple. I can't recall the exact details, but somewhere out there there's a set of messages detailing a future disaster for Canada. To survive, one is required to swallow a piece of paper upon which these or similar words are written: "Christ, save me." Doing so will save that person from the impending repercussions of the disaster. Give me a break! 5. Freedom to respond. Some messages invite a response from believers. I love what Mary is reputed to be saying at the end of locutions at some apparition sites, even after the most sobering of messages: "Thank you for responding to my call." Other "revelations," on the other hand, resort to emotional blackmail. I have in mind a pamphlet that put into the mouth of Christ these words: "Those people, who brawl against my religion and cast slurs on this Sacred Letter, shall be forsaken by me." 6. The messenger. Every message hinges upon the authenticity of the messenger. Who was the person directly involved, and what was his spiritual, psychological, and moral state at the time of the revelation? On the positive side, Sr. Faustina's authenticity and the beautiful devotions begotten by her life are watertight, almost beyond question. On the other side, there is the case of Maria Valtorta, author of The Poem of the Man-God. Her personal life raises serious questions. In the words of Fr. Benedict Groeschel, who happens to be a trained psychologist: "Miss Valtorta was a very devout and intelligent person. She spent the last ten years of her life in complete catatonic schizophrenia, unable to speak to anyone. This disease came on her gradually. It's important to realize that the progress of a disease like that may take many years before the acute symptoms occur. Although this book is interesting to read and has a certain poetic beauty to it, Cardinal Ratzinger referred to it as 'a lump of theological absurdities.'" Ratzinger and Groeschel are nobody's fools. I'm aware of the unjust scarlet letter associated with mental illness. Still, we are irresponsible to ourselves if we discount these facts. Likewise, we do well to note, says Groeschel, that The Poem of the Man-God was on the list of "forbidden books and has never been given papal approval, contrary to popular belief." A challenge, therefore, should be issued to the "uncritical ease" with which this book and others like it have made deep inroads into Catholic living. Some might object to such challenges on the grounds that they've experienced an inspiration from God through The Poem of the Man-God. Yet anything can inspire faith: music, art, sports, a starry night, literature, relationships, preaching, suffering, prayer, family gatherings, science, the Eucharist, gardening, religious books, a child playing, and the newspaper. Faith can be inspired from private revelation even if it is from a source that is imperfect or indeed highly suspect. Ultimately the question is not one of inspiration but of credibility and authority a person gives to a revelation. Ask yourself this question: "How do I quote these books?" Daily Bible reading might be kept, but what in fact has happened is a transference of authority from the Bible to the private revelation. Some Catholics have created a "Fifth Gospel" or a parallel bible. No book or personality should eclipse the living Christ of the Gospels. |
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=85449&page=1 Post #233
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#233
December 4, 2005, 10:19 PM
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Re: I Need Help
with Poem of the Man-God I have answered all questions asked and have come to the conclusion
that it is fruitless to spend any further time in this thread.
I will close with a few last comments and notes: The Catholic Church's Position I have done my best to bring forth the position of the Catholic Church itself. Several here refuse to acknowledge whether they believe or do not believe that the letter from Cardinal Ratzinger to Bishop Boland and the letter of Bishop Boland to Mr. Tony Colafrancesco represent the Church's position (as so stated in those letters). This is why they are repeated so often because it is not my position, but, "the position of the Church". Supporters in this thread have been unable to answer the question why Mr. Colafrancesco, who is publishing the book, sent his letter to Cardinal Ratzinger in the first place, if Cardinal Ratzinger did not have authority. They continue to side-step the issue. Some here think that we should find the points we agree on. I cannot agree with what a supporter says about the Valtorta work and not be in conflict with Holy Mother Church who has deemed this work to not be good for us. If one disagrees with Holy Mother Church, then they need to take it up with Her, not me. In addition to many others trying, Bishop Danylak has attempted to do this three years ago, and nothing has come of it. No response out of the Vatican says alot. They get priests and even bishops who disagree with their decisions who continue to press the given issue (as seen below). I would urge anyone with regards to private revelations to be cautious about anyone claiming to have received private approvals from people within the Holy See. We see this with Medjugorje, Bayside, Valtorta, and many others which have not been approved. True support from the Holy See comes in writing. I'm inclined to suggest you run the other way when you begin to see these kinds of "support". The Link to Medjugorje If it weren't for Medjugorje, many of todays supporters of Valtorta's works would not even know of the work. From the Michael Davies book on Medjugorje which the Bishop of Mostar, Ratzko Peric encouraged me personally via email, and encourages people in his speeches to read. Of course, many Medjugorje supporters are too wrapped up in slamming the local Bishop (always considered a "bad fruit" when discerning authenticity) to want to bother to read what he asks us to read (and found at his website). You can find on page 68 the connection between Poem of the Man-God and Medjugorje. http://www.mdaviesonmedj.com/ Lastly, I wish to address Medjugorje one last time by providing links to posts I've made in other threads. One was initiated by me. http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=59439&highlight=medjugorje http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=60177&highlight=medjugorje Supporters will have us believe that at some point the Pope will approve this. History shows the Pope trusts those whose job it is to discern such apparitions, which falls to the local Ordinary. Bishop Zanic made that decision, which was later supported by Bishop Peric, and affirmed by the 34 member Bishops Conference of the former Yugoslavia. Out of 34 Bishops, one abstained, and one voted positively on Medjugorje. Medjugorje supporters continue to hinge their hope on one Bishop out of 34 that the Pope will somehow intervene. It simply will not happen any more than the pope will somehow change the church's position on the Valtorta work in light of what has been said already. To think that the 1 bishop out of 34 is worth even quoting or reason to have hope, is to have hope that the US Supreme Court will overturn a decision at some future date because one out of 7 justices wrote a dissenting opinion. There was a decision and an opinion. The opinion is not in the law, the decision is. Supporters of Valtorta and Medjugorje just don't get it. End of my involvement in this thread |
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=85449&page=1 Post #259
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#259
December 12, 2005, 06:09 PM
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Re: I Need Help
with Poem of the Man-God OK, I've been on vacation so I'm really backlogged on reading this
one. Here's a good article on the "Poem":
http://www.ewtn.com/library/scriptur/valtorta.txt The plain fact is some of the facts in favor are incorrect and the series itself is historically inaccurate. So, if we are to believe that Valtorta was just Christ's "secretary" then she was a pretty bad one because I doubt Our Lord is lacking in historical knowledge. If she just wrote something down incorrectly than how much of it is incorrect. Besides this, the "Poem" has sparked disobedience from day one. I'd hope by the time you supporters get to vol. 5, p. 73 you would realize that someone has a twisted view of Christ. Here's some other articles I would suggest: http://jloughnan.tripod.com/critique.htm http://jloughnan.tripod.com/valtmedj.htm http://www.catholicculture.org/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=515 http://catholicculture.net/docs/doc_view.cfm?recnum=3365 http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1998/9806fea3.asp |
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=85449&page=1 Post #260 & #261
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#260
December 12, 2005, 08:44 PM
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Re: I Need Help
with Poem of the Man-God Eliza, "Lux" has moved on from discussion of this topic as there is
nothing more to say. However, I will address a few things from what
Characer_Zero has posted.
Also, I truly apologize if you are offended by my tone. On the other hand, I cannot compromise what I feel is true in order to appease anyone. I will take some points made by this priest-uncle of Character_Zero and call attention to a few things: Quotations from the Ratzinger letter are in Blue, the priests quotations in red, my responses are in black.: Point1 The first [letter] is the famous response to Cardinal Siri, who had written a cleverly worded query to Caridnal Ratzinger. R quotes the Note to the 1966 abolition " for which [reason] the diffusion and recommendation of a Work is not held to be opportune when its condemnation was not taken superficially, but after weighing its purposes, to the end of neutralizing the damages which such a publication could bring to the more unprepared faithful. " which was the standard response given about any book that had been taken off the Index before its abolition. Siri knew that Ratzi had no choice but to use it. Notice the words "more unprepared" (which are slightly different from the Italian original) = less educated - people with poor judgement or insufficient background knowledge. These were the people the Index was designed to protect. In the post WWII world of mass communication, the Index was deemed unnecessary and potentially harmful. 1) Point well taken that the letter was to Siri. While the name is blocked out it is easy to think the letter as going to Boland. 2) At one point the priest statest that "If the Holy Office, CDF, wanted to make a statement about it, it would have done so, loud and clear. Ratzi was no wimp. He never will be." In that statement above he contradicts this one by indicating Ratzinger had his hands tied. 3) I'm not sure what the original was to mean if "more unprepared" did not indicate less educated, or people with insufficient background knowledge. There is no substitute and maybe he is saying that it is these things. I can see where Ratzinger may be ok with scholars looking at the text, and even devating amongst themselves. However, I cannot see the casual Catholic, without the educational background readin this text - not in light of the strong comments even by priests today, such as Pacwa, and Groeschel, among others. So, now I've got the credentials of these two men, going up against another priest. Once again - the reading and dissecting of specifics belongs in the court of qualified scholars and as long as there is tension at that level, I would not be reading this text. 4) Furthermore, unless I missed it, I do not see the most important part of that paragraph addressed aside from the "more unpepared" wording. The underlined portion carries heavy weight for me. To say that Cardinal Ratzinger would give us this statement only because it was protocol doesn't wash with me. that, although abolished, the "Index" retained "all its moral value," for which [reason] the diffusion and recommendation of a Work is not held to be opportune when its condemnation was not taken superficially, but after weighing its purposes, to the end of neutralizing the damages which such a publication could bring to the more unprepared faithful. Point 2 Most Reverend Eminence, With a letter of 18 May [1984], Father [...] asked of this Sacred Congregation a clarification about the writings of Maria Valtorta, collected under the title of "The Poem of the Man-God", and if there exists any evaluation of the Church's Magisterium on the publication in question with the corresponding bibliographical reference. The Magisterium has never spoken on the matter. The Holy Office's authority is pastoral unless its decree (or other scriptum) specifically states that it is authorised by the Pope. IOW, the Holy Office's decrees are to be respected because they are performing a pastoral function of the Pope. The Index has never been considered Magisterial. The fact that it was placed on the list in the first place, weighs heavily for me and my interpretation of Cardinal Ratzinger's letter tells me we ought to be giving it serious weight. I would not so easily disregard even "pastoral" authority on an issue with so much controversy. This to me is like a parent saying, "stay away from this - it could harm you". It's far more virtuous to respect that pastoral authority, than to disregard it. If so many of todays scholars have written negatively about the text and there are opposing scholars who write positively about it, I am even more inclined to say - find a book which has full approval and leave the debates to them. In the meanwhile, take up a good book which has no such controversy. Point 3 and defined by "L'Osservatore Romano" of 6 January 1960, as "A Badly Novelized Life of Jesus." The Osservatore has no authority to "define" anything. This is a sneaky attempt to make the Osservatore opinion sound authoritative. While I agree that L'Osservatore Romano does not issue anything official such as decrees, Cardinal Ratzinger, the man this priest says is "no wimp" chose to refer us to the opinion stated in that periodical. If this priest can speculate that Ratzinger was only following some kind of protocol for any book on the index, then it is my right to speculate that Cardinal Ratzinger chose to simply refer us to a statement already thought out and explained in the L'Osservatore Romano. When he quotes that periodical as calling it a badly novelized life of Jesus, I take it that he wants us to see it that way too - from a pastoral perspective that is. I see what is in black and white as a hefty caution - one worth heeding in favor of approved books. I'm amazed at how supporters of Valtorta's work were quick to attack Fr. Mitch Pacwa earlier in the thread, the same opinion brought to us again in a link by Bear06. At the same time, supporters are quick to accept the words of another priest. Both are priests and I am fully aware of the educational credentials of Fr. Mitch Pacwa. I do not doubt the sincerity of the nameless priest quoted by Character_zero, but I respectfully retain my right to accept what Fr. Pacwa and many other theologians and scholars have written. |
http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?t=85449&page=1 Post #262
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#262
December 13, 2005, 02:08 AM
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Re: I Need Help
with Poem of the Man-God I only found this thread now. Of course there is a link between Valtorta and Medjugorje. The Gospa of Medjugorje in
person recommends the reading of Valtorta. So
fans of Medjugorje have no choice. They have to swallow Valtorta too. There is a parallel.And Valtorta has been condemned by Rome in 1949, 1959,
1960, 1985, 1993.What more do people want?
In this thread already many reasons are given not to believe in Valtorta. The answer of Ratzinger in 1993 was clear enough. Like his answer about Medjugorje on July 22 (not 28!)1998 was clear enough too(cited in this thread by Diane on December 1 3.47pm) Later, fanatics of Medjugorje said that this letter was fake, so a friend of mine asked in a letter to Ratzingers office for confirmation of the authenticity of this letter. The answer came on February 5 2002 in german,signed by the secretary of Ratzinger, Dr. Josef Clemens : " Im Auftrag von Herrn Kardinal Ratzinger teile ich Ihnen mit, das die übersandte Kopie eines Briefes Seiner Eminenz von 22 Juli 1998 dem Original entspricht." what means : " Cardinal Ratzinger ordered me to tell you that the copy of his letter of July 22 1998 that you sent me, is an authentic copy of the original letter." |
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