| 1925, Oct. 20 | Pierre Martin Ngô-Dinh-Thuc Ordained [ 1] | 1938, Mar., 15 | Alleged by Roger Jean-Marie Kozic (see below), a Thuc bishop
and others that "Pope Pius XI honored Bishop Ngô-Dinh-Thuc with a particular trust, through a
delegation of powers, of which here is below a copy. This is the text of this motu proprio:
"Pius XI, Pope, |
1938, May 4 | Thuc was consecrated Titular Bishop of Saesina; a
Bishop of Hue 1938-60 [ 1] |
1939, Mar. 2 | Pope Pius XII elected Pope. |
1939, Dec. 8 | allegedly: "These faculties were renewed on December
8, 1939, by Pope Pius XII and were never rescinded." [ 6] |
1958, Oct 28 | Pope John XXIII elected pope. |
1960 | Archbishop of Hue, 1960-68, and Titular Archbishop of Bulla Bulla 1968-84 [ 1] |
1963, June 21 | Pope Paul VI elected pope. |
1976, Jan. 1 | Clemente Ferdinand Dominguez Gómez
ordained priest by Thuc AND consecrated bishop on the same day. [ 1] |
1976, Jan. 1 | Archbishop Ngô-Dinh-Thuc incurred
automatic excommunication from this day. The Thucites claim otherwise: that Thuc had a type of
"secret" mandate from Pope Pius XI to do many things, including consecrating bishops anywhere in
the world. However, surely, his first excommunication would also automatically void any such
mandate. |
1976, Jan. 1 | Alfred Paul Athanasius Maria Seiwert-Fleige ordained
priest by xxxxx [10] or Clemente Dominguez Gómez. [11] The probabilities are that he was
ordained by Archbishop Ngô-Dinh-Thuc |
1976, Jan. 11 | Clemente Ferdinand Dominguez Gómez consecrated bishop by Thuc. [ 1] |
1976, Sept. 7 | "…he [Thuc] arrived in Rome to make peace with the Vatican." [ 5] |
1976, Sept. 17 | AAS 68-623: re: Excommunication of parties to the Ordinations Conferred by Archbishop Ngô-dinh-Thuc (S.C. Doct. Fid.)” “[…] “3) Finally, as regards those who have already received ordination in this illegitimate manner or those who will perhaps receive ordination from the former, whatever is to be said of the validity of the Orders, the Church neither now recognizes nor will recognize their ordination and, as regards all effects of law, holds them to be in that state which each one of them previously had. The above-mentioned penal sanctions remain in effect until they repent. All things to the contrary notwithstanding..” [ 7] |
1978 | Gómez formed the Holy Palmarian Church
[ 1] From this time, "consecrations" were done in "The Palmarian Rite" – NOT in the Roman Rite. |
1978, August | From this date he has been Pope Gregory XVII of the Holy Palmarian Church. [ 1] |
1978, Sept. | Pope John-Paul I elected pope, dies. Pope John-Paul II elected pope. |
1978, Oct. 19 | Roger Jean-Marie Kozik consecrated sub conditione
by Thuc. Previously he had been consecrated a bishop on xx/xx/197x by Manuel Isadoro Maria Alonzo
Corral, a bishop of the Holy Palmarian Church. It appears that Kozik did not believe that the Corral's
(who had been "consecrated" by Thuc in 1976) consecration was "effective"! |
1978, Nov. 1 | Alfred Paul Athanasius Maria Seiwert-Fleige
consecrated bishop by Gómez, Corral and Puga. Later consecrated sub conditione April 8,
1984 by Roux. [ 1] [ 9] |
1979 | "However, his change of heart was short-lived. Mgr.
Ngô soon moved to Toulon, France. There , in 1979, he raised to the episcopate (for the 'umpteenth
time') Jean Labourie, leader of the schismatic 'Old Catholic' sect, the 'Latin Church of Toulouse.'" [ 5] |
1981, Oct. 17 | Thuc consecrates two Mexican priests "Fr. Moises
Carmona Rivera and Father Adolfo Zamora Hernandez." [ 5] |
1982, Feb. 25 | Thuc "declares the See of Rome being [sic] vacant." [ 5] |
1983, Mar. 12 |
AAS 75-392 Notification from the Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith: ( the excommunication of Archbishop Thuc for the second time.) “[…] “3) Finally, as regards those who have already received ordination in this illegitimate manner or those who will perhaps receive ordination from the former, whatever is to be said of the validity of the Orders, the Church neither now recognizes nor will recognize their ordination and, as regards all effects of law, holds them to be in that state which each one of them previously had. The above-mentioned penal sanctions remain in effect until they repent. All things to the contrary notwithstanding.. “Moreover this Sacred Congregation believes it has the duty strongly to advise members of the faithful to avoid participating in or fostering in any way liturgical activities or undertakings and works of another kind which are prompted by those persons mentioned above.” Fr. Vincent Twomey SVD, Lecturer in Moral Theology and Editor of The Irish Theological Quarterly, Pontifical University, Maynooth, stated in The Irish Times April 27, 1999 that: “Moreover, the document continues, the Church 'considers them in the state each had previously', in other words as laymen or priests. Thus, in the eyes of the Church, we are dealing with a Mr Michael Cox, a Father Pat Buckley, whom he [Cox] attempted to ordain a bishop, and, most recently, a Ms Sinead O'Connor.” |
1984, Dec. 18 | Archbishop Ngô-dinh-Thuc's statement of final
retraction with information regarding reply from Cong. Doctrine of the Faith. DocCath 82 (1985):
185. [ 8] |
1999, Aug. 15 | It is alleged that Bartholomäus or Bartholomew
Schneider was consecrated by Seiwert-Fliege in Bonn, Germany. [ 9] |
1999, Sep. 26 | Bishop Philip Wilson, Bishop of Wollongong determined
that ”…Bishop Wilson's investigations reveal that Bartholomew Schneider is not a bishop and he holds no office of authority in the Roman Catholic Church… In fact a warning about his illegal activities was published in the L'Osservatore Romano on 19 September 1995…” |
2002, June 16 | Degree issued on “Mr William Kamm also known as
"The Little Pebble", in which warnings conveyed orders and exhortations. [ 3] |
2003, Mar. 30 | Fr. Malcolm L. Broussard, Jnr. was consecrated by
alleged Thuc line Bishop Bartholomäus Schneider in Bavaria. |
2003, June 10 | William Kamm: “On the 10 June 2003 I received
a Decree from Bishop Peter Ingham of our Diocese advising me of my excommunication.” [ 4] |
2005, Jan. 28 | The Librarian of Melbourne's Catholic Theological
College's Mannix Library is asked to check the Annuario Pontifico for the name of
Seiwert-Fleige. There is no record of that name in the official list of Bishops of the Catholic
Church. The “Little Pebble's” advice of “regularization,” therefore, does NOT mean that
Seiwert-Fleige's “consecration” is recognized. The probabilities are that he has been, at best, simply
reconciled to the Church as an illicit priest – that is, the state he was in prior to his illicit
consecration, and probably reduced to the lay state. |
1) naming Thuc as a legate for Pius XI
2) for purposes known only to Pius XI and Thuc
3) granting “all the powers required” for unknown purposes.
4) all verbal discussion and clarification is lost in the wind!
Some of the Motu proprios have extensive data – others only record the fact of there being a document. For example, the Motu proprio for Mar. 31, 1939 is shown in The Canon Law Digest, p. 24 as: “Privileges of Conclavists of Pius XII. Pius XII, Motu proprio, 31 Mar., 1939 (AAS 31-141).”
The Canon Law Digest, Vol. II lists two “Motu proprios” for Pope Pius XII in 1939 and 1940: Mar. 31, 1939, and Dec. 1. 1940. There are no Motu proprios listed for Dec. 8, 1939, but there are three documents listed for that date: “Faculties, S.C.Consist.”, “Instruction, S.C. Prop. Fid.”, and “Exhortation, Pius XII” – none of which have anything to do with Archbishop Thuc.
Surely, one could expect an entry in some Vatican document on the Thuc “mandate" claim as proof
for prosterity in relation to the alleged “powers required”?
Thus, any legitimate indult or powers granted by Pope Pius XI – and therefore, under the terms of the alleged “mandate”, unknown to Pope Pius XII – would cease and need to be renewed by the new pope if he so desired.. Is it beyond reasonable doubt whether or not Pope Pius XII renewed the “mandate”? and, respectively, Popes John XXIII, Paul VI, John-Paul I and John-Paul II? The indication that the “mandate” was claimed to have been renewed upon the election of Pius XII in 1939 only indicated that acknowledgement that such renewal would also have been required on the election of successor popes.
It is alleged (see entry under 1939, Dec. 8 above) that the “mandate” was “renewed [by Pius XII] and never rescinded.” However, in 1976 Thuc had long since ceased being the pope's legate in Indochina after having fled from that area in the 60's, and the “purposes known to us, with all the powers required” would certainly have then ceased in virtue of re-location from Indochina, lack of renewal of “mandate” by Pope John XXIII, etc.. What is more, it is known that Thuc was treated quite “poorly” in Europe - not in any way as a “legate” would be treated! In any event - any renewal by Pope Pius XII is not listed in The Canon Law Digest; where may the alleged "renewal" document be viewed?
- does list Seiwert-Fliege as having been consecrated by Clemente Gómez.
- does NOT list Schneider as a bishop
The Database of Autocephalous Bishops
- does list Seiwert-Fliege as having been consecrated by Clemente Gómez, Corral and Puga
- does NOT list Schneider as a bishop
in it's database at http://www.angelfire.com/on3/Database4/
The Database of Fr. Lucifer Legionnaire, a.k.a. Luc Eifer, a.k.a. Bishop Estanislao, a.k.a. Geoffrey Francis Mayne
- does list Seiwert-Fliege as having been consecrated by Clemente Gómez, Corral and Puga
- does NOT list Schneider as a bishop
in it's database at http://www.heartofstjohn.org/OLD%20WEB/Thuc%20Consecrations/palmar_de_troya.htm