PADRE PIO and ARCHBISHOP Marcel LEFEBVRE

(As a matter of interest, the below article from Bill Grossklas' AGENDA website was forwarded to the SSPX@onelist.com discussion list, attracting adverse comment:)


Date: Thu, 26 Apr 2000
From: "lacusmin " [lacusmin@my-Deja.com]
(F.J.L. later comment: "lacusmin," a.k.a. Sean Ó Lachtnáin, a.k.a. F. John Loughnan)

"PADRE PIO and ARCHBISHOP LEFEBVRE"

The following is a copy of a letter sent to the Catholic Times by Stephen M. Smith of London, concerning a meeting between Marcel Lefebvre and Padre Pio in 1962."

Further to the comments of Mrs. Susan Murray concerning the example of obedience to superiors set by Padre Pio, Catholic Times readers may be interested to learn of the meeting of Padre Pio with the late Archbishop Lefebvre in 1962, shortly after the archbishop had been made Superior General of the Holy Ghost Fathers.

The archbishop had a meeting with Padre Pio in the presence of Professor Bruno Rabajotti. This witness reported that at a particular moment Padre Pio looked at Lefebvre very sternly and said: "Never cause discord among your brothers and always practice the rule of obedience, above all when it seems to you that the errors of those in authority are all the more serious. There is no other road than that of obedience, especially for those who have made this vow."

Padre Pio could give this advice because he had to obey some rather questionable orders himself. His attitude was to put this in God's hands because He would find a way for truth to triumph. It seems that Archbishop Lefebvre did not see things in quite the same way even if he did respond to Padre Pio with "'twill remember that, Father."

Padre Pio looked at him intensely and, seeing what would soon happen, said: "No! You will forget it. You will tear apart the community of the faithful, oppose the will of your superiors and even go against the orders of the Pope himself -- and this will happen quite soon. You will forget the promise you made here today, and the whole Church will be hurt by you. Don't set yourself up as a judge. Don't take powers that do not belong to you and do not consider yourself as the voice of God's people, as God already speaks to them. Do not cause discord and dissension. However, I know that this is what you will do!"

(Quote taken from "Padre Pio Gleanings" by Pascal Cataneo, 1991)

How significant that the Padre Pio who foresaw the disobedience of Lefebvre was the same Padre Pio who met a young Fr. Karol Wojtyla in 1947 and told him that he would one day be Sovereign Pontiff. God bless our Pope.

(Signed) Stephen M. Smith, London


Here follow some subsequent comments:

Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000
From: "Griff Ruby" griff@thegrid.net

That letter is a lie since Padre Pio never actually met the Archbishop.[*] I find it horrific to see such a great saint woefully and deliberately misrepresented. The mysterious "Stephen M. Smith" (actually a pseudonym for a non-Catholic) will have much to answer for that.

No real saint would have uttered such obviously false, silly, and worthless blather. Funny thing that this story (supposedly based on 1962 events) only "comes out" after the saintly [**] Archbishop is dead and therefore in no position to deny it (as he would, with evidence to back it up, such as where he was in 1962 such that the saintly Padre could not have met him, at least without bilocating, which no one here claims he did on this supposed "occasion").
(F.J.L. later comment: [*] Ooops! Wrong there - as later posts prove! See Jim Vogel's reply of April 27, and Fr. Laisney's of April 29. [**] Unrepentent schismatics do not make it to the ranks of sainthood. Certainly, we can pray that Lefebvre repented is errors prior to his death and received a merciful judgment.)


Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000
From: pxclark@aol.com

A few obvious questions: Who is "Stephen M. Smith of London"? How did he obtain this information? The quotes are extensive, so who was taking notes, or was a tape made? What is the documentation, and where can it be found? You write that the letter was "sent" to the Catholic Times. Was it published? If so, would you provide the issue number so I can verify this through the Library of Congress? If you haven't seen the issue itself, would you provide the second-hand source of your information?

I assure you I will track all details down, and I am a seasoned researcher. . .
[F.J.L. later comment: if the "seasoned researcher" DID track down "all the details" - he did not publish his results!]


Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000
From: "Jamie Frater" jfrater@globe.net.nz

To add to your statement, Latin Mass Magazine printed an article which stated that Padre Pio and his greatest Spiritual daughter both supported Archbishop Lefebvre vehemently.


Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000
From: pxclark@aol.com

Griff, I sent my questions to Sean before I read your post. You bring up an excellent point. The extensive quote attributed to Padre Pio is unaccompanied by highly pertinent details, including the date when this alleged meeting took place, and the roster of those present. (These points should be easy enough to verify or debunk.) Whoever played stenographer in recording the detailed And anyone repeating such a grave allegation -- that Padre Pio would say such a thing to a man who in our day is no longer alive to defend his good name -- should have detailed source information at the ready.

Accepting on face value a letter from a guy named Smith doesn't quite meet the bar. Going to the primary sources would be a start. That will tell us more about these sources, and people of good will can evaluate the allegation from there.

If Padre Pio prophesied a schism, and did so in front of more than one person on this alleged occasion, it seems a sufficiently important issue that I have to wonder whether he discussed it with anyone else. He seems not to have mentioned it to Mme. Katharina Tangari, his spiritual daughter, biographer (TAN) and friend of the SSPX.


Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000
From: "John Clay" jclay@ultra.net.au

Jamie, Yep! That Spiritual Daughter would be Madame Tangarey. I helped produce a book on her once which was a translation from the Czech language one. A local Czech lady did the translation. It was supposed to have been published by TAN but they rejected it because of a supposedly faulty translation. BTW!! I have sent all the emails about this supposed meeting between the Archbishop and Padre Pio on to Fr Francois Lainey in Switzerland. I have suggested Fr Black in London to investigate the matter too. We will just see what happens.


Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000
From: pxclark@aol.com

John, They may have obtained a satisfactory translation since that happened. TAN now offers her book, "Stories of Padre Pio."


Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000
From: "John Clay" jclay@ultra.net.au

Clark, Yes! I noted that from your post. They must have obtained a much better translation. Actually all I did was produce the manuscript from the translation. Fr Gerard Hogan of the SSPX (I don't know if you know him) was the priest wanting the book produced as he knew personally Mme. Tangari. I have a friend who has a relic of her too - a piece of her hair. When I was in Rome in 1993 I slept in the very bed in Albano where she had died just a few years before.


Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000
From: "Tomac, Justin" jtomac@emersonvent.com

The Archbishop had met Padre Pio only once. I believe it was after the Council though. The seminarians at Econe asked him what they talked about and asked what kind of person was Padre Pio. The Archbishop said he was very congenial and nice. As for what Padre Pio (your claim Sean O'L) said to the Archbishop is totally erroneous. Look in the (I think, not for certain) February Angelus.

Interesting to note that in 1965 Padre Pio petitioned Pope Paul VI to continue saying the Mass of his ordination (much to the disgust of his abbot). Also interesting is that he died a couple of days before he would have said the New Mass under obedience.

As to the other garbage out there that says Padre Pio said the Normative Mass of 1965 or even the New Mass (there is one picture of him supposedly facing the people) these are erroneous as well. His petition was granted by Paul VI (as was Fr. M. Martin) to continue with the Tridentine Mass (if I remember correctly) in 1965.


Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000
From: "Brad Whitley" tsar64@hotmail.com

I looked in our books on Padre Pio here at the college [*] and there is no such quote nor is their any mention of a meeting between our Saintly Archbishop and this Saintly Padre. This obviously some satanic delusion sent from the bowels of hell itself.

(F.J.L. later comment: [*]Brad was obviously wrong on two points here! First of all, he limited himself to looking in the college library; secondly, he simply missed the quote; and thirdly, he was unaware that there was, in fact a meeting of the two. His allusion to a satanic delusion is, unfortunately, only of his own making!)


Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000
From: pxclark@aol.com

Sean. Re the Padre Pio questions, I say this in all sincerety: I'm sure you're mindful of the commandment against bearing false witness, and of common ethics. I'm therefore confident you yourself asked these elementary questions, and can answer them promptly.

May I then append these: Will you tell us what you know about Prof. Bruno Rabajotti and Pascale Catanes? (I plan to locate Catanes' publisher and pursue the source.) If the story wasn't made public during Archbishop Lefebvre's lifetime, do you know why not?


Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000
From: "Cummings, Christopher W." ccummings@cftc.gov

This is, of course, quoted from Bill Grossklas's website.


Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000
From: "Name withdrawn"

With regard to Padre Pio and Archbishop Lefebvre, they did indeed meet. There is a famous photograph of the Padre kissing the archbishop's ring. Some months ago, Angelus had an article on that meeting, and the erroneousness of the purported words of Padre Pio that have been going around Indult circles, concerning obedience. Now Padre Pio did not like to be photographed. It is reported that many times the photographic negatives came out blank because he was displeased with all the photography. Now then, why didn't he cause this particular photograph to be blanked out, which is of immense symbolic importance?

With regards to LaSalette, some weeks ago someone claimed the published LaSalette message to be a fraud. That story, like the one concerning Padre Pio's purported call for obedience to Archbishop Lefebvre, has also been circulating in certain circles (I think more the Adoremus/conservative novus ordo people). While the text of the Secrets given by Melanie Calvat and Maximin Geraud, the child seers of La Salette, to Pope Pius IX, have not(yet) been made public, Rome has never refuted the published version of the secret given to Melanie.[*] And that published version had the imprimatur of a bishop who knew Melanie well.[**] We know also that each seer, although they tried and did not suceed in living the religious life, were still know for sanctity throughout their lives. Why then, would they make up stories? It would make no sense for them to do so. And the proof is in the pudding. The La Salette text is being fulfilled in our lifetimes.

Now here's another story circulating concerning Padre Pio. Not a story but something he is supposed to have signed saying that he supported Vatican II. If you do any research on the Saint you will see that in the last years of his life, when he was old and sick, his superiors wrote things that they pushed him to sign out of obedience. What we do know is that he got some sort of dispensation so that he would not have to say the new mass. I think that says it all. [***]

(F.J.L. later comment: [*] Not refuting is no proof of authenticity. Has the Vatican responded to "Name withdrawn" - or the "Remnant" "We Resist You To the Face" writings? [**] An "Imprimatur" which was trumped the following year (1880) by a condemnation, and the "Secret of La Salette" being placed on the Index of Prohibited Books on four occasions! [***] Unsubstantiated [anonmyous] ipse dixits! )


Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000
From: pxclark@aol.com

Right down to the spelling of the secondary source, "Catanes," not the spelling used by his distributor.

The claim about the meeting with the future John Paul II is interesting, too, and doesn't include a source. I'm working to identify the origin of that report.
(F.J.L. later comment: The "report" never eventuated!)


Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000
From: "Dominic Andrew Marino" dommarino@hotmail.com

Good point Clark. I think it is also interesting here that people claim that Padre Pio would tell a priest that he would one day become pope. Isn't the Holy Ghost supposed to choose the pope? Even if Padre Pio did know that Karol Wojtyla would become pope, I am willing to bet that he, being the Saintly priest that he is, would not say so, even if he did know.
(F.J.L. later comment: So! Via the power of the Holy Spirit, Padre Pio was able to see people sins and to remonstrate directly with them - but, the Holy Spirit would not be able to communicate the fact of "Karol Wojtyla's" future to Padre Poi, AND Padre Pio would not pass that on? Hmmmmmm!


Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000
From: KAHLESS2955@webtv.net

Hello List and GOD BLESS YOU ALL, Just my 2 cents: That Padre Pio supposed talk with Archbishop Lefevbre sounds ridiculous. Padre Pio was in obedience to some requests of superiors that were unfair Yes. But none of those requests had anything to do with Faith and Morals, the new Roman Catholic Protestant Mass or any of the things we face now! My own personal opinon is he would have had a few things to say and do different now. Blind Obedience is a Sin against Obedience. I also thought that the Pope either Never met Padre Pio or if he did No conversation of future Popes ever took place!!!!! Ralph Gasbarro


Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000
From: "lacusmin " [lacusmin@my-Deja.com]

Well, this certainly opened up what may prove to be a fruitful discussion!

At the outset, let me say that I am a poor human being, subject at all times to the frailties of that condition. Let me also say that at all times I attempt to be honest.

Whenever (not "if"), whenever I do or say anything that is erroneous - I apologize for, and attempt to rectify.

At this stage, at least, I will appreciate all feedback on the matter (but please let it be objective and not irrational!) Yes! The quotation is verbatim from Bill Grossklas' AGENDA site. In the event that there is sufficient evidence - but, not evidence of Lefebvolaty - then, I will do all that I can to convince him to remove the article from his site.

Be patient, pxclark! Your attempt to claim default is premature! YOU do not have all and sundry trying to attack and find cracks in all you say; I do! But, that's O.K. I'm a big boy - even if an ordinary human being. Sean O'L.


Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000
From: Jim Vogel SSPXCath@yahoo.com

Actually... Padre Pio and Archbishop Lefebvre did meet. As the May 1999 Angelus reads in the article, "Padre Pio", written by Fr. Jean, a traditional Franciscan:

"In 1967, not long before Padre Pio's death, Archbishop Lefebvre went to visit him at San Giovanni Rotondo. He told Padre Pio that an important chapter of the Holy Ghost Fathers was going to be taking place and asked him to bless, in his own person, the whole congregation. Padre Pio answered that it was rather for the Archbishop to bless him, which he did."

There is also a picture included of Padre Pio kissing the Archbishop's ring. I hope this information helps you all.


Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000
From: "martha p" [ladyharpe@hotmail.com]

Padre Pio was no liberal, but a holy man who tried to stay out of the public eye; as such, from VII to his death he was an embarassment to the liberals, a living proof that stigmatism, extraordinary graces such as power of bilocation, etc, and other distinctly Catholic piety is not illusion, & they would never mention his name. now after his death it seems there is capital to be made in circulating stories about him and other people (also dead).


Date: Sat, 29 Apr 2000
From: "John Clay" jclay@ultra.net.au

Herewith the reply I received from Fr Laisney re the 1962 "meeting" of Archbishop Lefebvre with Padro Pio as recounted by Sean O'L. As can be seen from Fr's response the meeting was certainly different from the "stern looks" from Padro Pio. From this you can draw your own conclusions on the stories from the likes of Sean and his ilk. God bless you all always. KEEP THE FAITH!!!


From: Maison générale fsspx
To: John Clay
Sent: Saturday, 29 April 2000

There has been a meeting between Mgr. Lefebvre and Padre Pio. You have a photo of it in the first volume of "Apologia pro Archbishop Lefebvre" by Michael Davies, but without any commentary. There is another photo of the same meeting in the book published in French by Philippe Héduit, entitled "Monseigneur Lefebvre et la Fraternité", editions Fideliter, 1991, page 63. Here one finds a small commentary, which I translate here:

"In 1967, at Easter, he pays a visit with Father Barbara to Padre Pio, the stymatised Capucin monk at San Giovani Rotondo - who was to die a few months later. He announces to Padre Pio that an important general chapter of the Holy Ghost Fathers is going to take place and asks him to bless his congregation in his person. Padre Pio answers saying that its behooves that the Archbishop blesses him, which he does. Both bow to one another. The moving scene lasts two minutes."

One sees on that second photo Padre Pio slightly bending and kissing the Bishop's ring, while the Bishop inclines himself to him. Padre Pio is accompanied by two young Capucin monks. The photo published by Michael Davies is manifestly at the same occasion, though slightly before the kissing of the ring. One sees better the two assistant Capucin monks, and the priest who accompanies Mgr. Lefebvre. Nobody else seems to be around.

I have never heard of another meeting between Archbishop Lefebvre and Padre Pio.

I hope this informations will help setting the record straight. You can "post" it.

Father François Laisney


Date: Fri, 28 Apr 2000
From: pxclark@aol.com

Shrewd insight, Dom. You're right, it doesn't seem in character that Padre Pio would tell the young Karol Wojtyla such a thing, even if Padre had foreseen it. I especially can't imagine Padre Pio saying such a thing in the presence of witnesses, where it would wind up publicly reported.

It's possible the pedigree for this unsubstantiated story is that old tale about Nostradamus supposedly addressing a future pope as "Your Holiness."


[F.J.L. later comment: John Clay wrote, regarding Fr. Laisney's response: "...you can draw your own conclusions on the stories from the likes of Sean and his ilk.

Well, John Clay, the jury is still out on this matter for this ilk! But, I find it interesting, and will add it to the information so far provided.

Thus far, apart from the initial allegation by Stephen M. Smith (allegedly posted in the Catholic Times - allegations which I am endeavoring to pursue at the moment) - we have a couple of outright denials that the two ever met; allegations that the writer, Stephen M. Smith is a pseudonym for a non-Catholic; that an alleged biographer (Mme Katherina Tangari or Tangarey, now deceased) wrote nothing of it; that Padre Pio "blanked out" photographic negatives because he did not like to be photographed - but that an existing picture of him kissing Lefebvre's ring, is proof of the error of the original allegation.

Actually, the latter is proof only that Padre Pio acknowledged a THEN bishop in communion with Rome - a courtesy. Be that as it may, the letter from Fr Laisney is also interesting from another aspect.

I happen to have the first two parts of Michael Davies' "Apologia Pro Marcel Lefebvre, Part I 1905-1976, The Angelus Press, Dickinson, Texas 77539; Ist Edition- August, 1979." There is no photo in that Edition. This Edition is called "Part One". Presumably, Fr. Laisney refers to a subsequent edition? In which the photo has been inserted? By Michael Davies? or by the SSPX?

But, one could also interpret his reply as a sort of "smoke-screen", or similar to the way war planes scatter aluminium foil to disorient radar. For, while there is acknowledgement that Lefebvre did meet Padre Pio in 1967, and that Padre Pio gave the normal greetings to a bishop - there has been no evidence given to date that they did or did NOT meet in 1962.

Everything else offered is either erroneous, or emotional and speculative evidence of Lefebvolatry.

On the positive side, I have sent e-mail messages to the Editor of the Catholic Times (which has been returned undelivered), and to a Mr Stephen M. Smith in England; established that "Padre Pio Gleanings" is available for purchase in Australia and from Amazon Books (delivery 2-12 weeks in the USA). I am doing my best to gain further information.

As it is, neither Bill Grossklas nor myself are any more responsible for any error which might be in the book "Padre Pio Gleanings" than, say, can be pxclark for quoting in the SSPXonelist headlines in a newspaper. On the one hand, though, I am endeavoring to establish whether the matter needs to be corrected. Mr Clark, however, I'll wager, has not done similar in respect to the erroneous newspaper headline, regarding the pope, which he has quoted.

Sean O'L



ATTEMPTS MADE TO OBTAIN FURTHER INFORMATION

steve@fmrib.ox.ac.uk
April 29, 2000
Dear Mr Smith,

A Stephen M. Smith is recorded as commenting in the Catholic Times on an interview between Archbishop Lefebvre and Padre Pio in 1962.

This is a "long shot", but I wonder if you are that Stephen M. Smith; if so, may I enquire whether any feed-back came as a result of that letter.

If you are not the person I am seeking, please forgive this intrusion.

Yours sincerely,

Sean O'Lachtnain
Australia.


Date: Tue, 02 May 2000 From: Stephen Smith [steve@fmrib.ox.ac.uk] Subject: Re: Archbishop Lefebvre and Padre Pio Organization: FMRIB Oxford To: lacusmin@my-deja.com not me I'm afraid - sorry! Steve. -- Stephen M. Smith Head of Image Analysis, FMRIB Oxford University Centre for Functional MRI of the Brain John Radcliffe Hospital, Headington, Oxford OX3 9DU, UK +44 (0) 1865 222726 (fax 222717) steve@fmrib.ox.ac.uk http://www.fmrib.ox.ac.uk/~steve


e-mail sent April 29, 2000 kevin.flaherty@the-universe.net Dear Mr Flaherty, The article below (1) is posted to Bill Grossklas' web-site.(2) I have on-posted it to a pro-Society of St Pius X discussion list (SSPX@onelist.com). I was an adherent to the SSPX for many years, but am now doing a self-imposed penance in attempting to point out the errors of Archbishop Lefebvre and the SSPX. The post has drawn many attacks, from outright denial that the two ever met, to allegations that the writer, Stephen M. Smith is a pseudonym for a non-Catholic; that a biographer (Mme Katherina Tangari or Tangarey, now deceased) wrote nothing of it; that Padre Pio "blanked out" photographic negatives because he did not like to be photographes - yet there is an existing picture of him kissing Lefebvre's ring, etc. Are you able to help me with any of the following: 1. The date of the Catholic Times in which the letter was published. 2. Whether Mr Smith is otherwise known to the Catholic Times and, if so, whether he may be contactable. 3. Whether there was any response to his letter. 4. Whether there is any other confirmation of the event, that is, whether the Catholic Times has any other information on the event. I would be most grateful for any assistance you may be able to provide. With kind regards and God Bless, Sean O'Lachtnain [There were attachments.]

CATHOLIC TIMES Editor : Kevin Flaherty. Deputy Editor : Tara Holmes . Newsdesk : Marie Parry Contact the editor at: kevin.flaherty@the-universe.net Editorial Office : First Floor, St James's Buildings, Oxford Street, Manchester M1 6FP. Tel : 0011 44 161 236 8856. Fax : 0161 237 5590. (c) Copyrite. Published by Gabriel Communications Limited.

Padre Pio Book Store THE PADRE PIO FOUNDATION OF AMERICA, 463 Main Street, Cromwell, CT 06457 YOU MAY ALSO CALL US WITH YOUR ORDER AT (860) 635-4996. http://www.padrepio.com/books.html Padre Pio Gleanings, Pascal Cataneo $12.00 _____

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Received from Bill Grossklas May 1, 2000 From: "grossklas" [grossklas@earthlink.net] To: "John Loughnan" [jloughnan@hotmail.com] Subject: Re: Lefebvre/Pio meet Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 12:56:33 -0500 Hi John: Regarding the Lefebvre/Pio meeting, at this point I can't say. I've tried to verify it through several Padre Pio sites and the only response I've gotten so far is the one below; and that writer apparently is friendly toward Lefebvre. No one thus far has been able to either verify or deny its accuracy. So, all I have at this point is the original story as I received it. So, take it for what it's worth. Personally, I wouldn't use it to prove a point as its veracity is inconclusive. I received no other responses either pro or con. Here's a copy of the email I mentioned though it proves nothing really.

From: Donald F. Lippert, OFM Cap. [frdflipp@mail.cle-dioc.org] To: grossklas [grossklas@earthlink.net] Subject: Re: An article Date: Saturday, February 05, 2000 7:19 PM Dear William, Thank you for the article you sent. I had never seen it before. I'd like to check it out. It certainly is consistent with what we know of Padre Pio. Even though he may have had some disagreements, he was ultimately totally loyal and obedient to the Church. May the Lord give us all that Grace. Thank you for your message. Pax et bonum! brother don, ofm cap.

From: "grossklas" [grossklas@earthlink.net] To: "John Loughnan" [jloughnan@hotmail.com] Subject: Re: Lefebvre/Pio meet Date: Sun, 30 Apr 2000 13:28:43 -0500 Dear John: As this seems to be a sticking point, I will give the pro-Lefebvre party this much in that I have posted a disclaimer to that particular webpage besides the one I have posted at the beginning of the site. If anyone can shed more light on this story I will be happy to do whatever needs to be done. All the best, Bill

Date: Mon, 01 May 2000
From: "lacusmin" [lacusmin@my-Deja.com]

Clarke wrote - and on this occasion, it was I who was amused:

Finally, you agree that your point was that the pope should not make ANY apologies. And on that point we will have to agree to disagree.

On the matter of the now agreed matter that Lefebvre DID meet Padre Pio - there is much more water to flow under the bridge; and that will follow in due course.

In the meantime, however, I can say that following my representations for caution, Mr Bill Grossklas has posted the following disclaimer to the message:

"(Note: As of 4/30/2000, we have been unable to verify from other sources that the meeting, as recounted below, ever actually took place. Anyone having knowledge of this event is requested to forward their information to me at grossklas@earthlink.net The only comment I've received thus far is that the story is "consistent with what we know of Padre Pio." The story may or may not be true.)"

I am conducting further enquiries and will advise the outcome as soon as possible. In the meantime, pxclark being such an excellent researcher will, no doubt, be able to provide the answers for us all.

Sean O'L




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